Chat about the game...

Just thought of something for when you update all our characters to be more in line with the DC rules, in all that copious time of yours, Haunt apparently needs a few points so he can change his power Fog so he can see through it himself? How about some minor pysch lim like "Must play at being a supernatural creature"? Should give him the points needed, I'm guessing.

By the way Paul, Stormbreaker has 14 flight.. his 'pouring on the speed' would be close to Mach 30 or so..

I think there's something in his write up needs clearing up: Power Reserve – Set Power Layout 1 (Str to 3 Dex) -1, Power Always on -1. I assumed his Dex up to 13 (with 3 points to Str, 4 to Dex) as he has 7 Power Reserve. If his Dex goes up by 5 points his Str rises by 2 points then?

On another note, will be getting some updating done today but pushed as usual - have a union meeting today (actually need to find out what time it starts) and then have a few hours before back in bed for work at midnight tonight... ah, the glamour of being a train driver. So, as usual, thanks for your patience guys

His power reserve works as 1 str to 3 dex, or as close to as possible. so point 1 is str, then 2-4 is dex, then 5 is str and 6-8 is Dex 9 Str, 10-12 Dex, and so on. As it only has 7 APs.. 2 Str and 5 Dex. Make more Sense now?

I'm actually thinking of using the Ability boost powers we're making for Mr. Liberty over in the DC vs Marvel Game. Dex Boost 5 and Str Boost 2 would work well as I wrote them out. It would also free the points to get rid of the more hoaky drawbacks I've been using to make it work

Still alive, still here. Ryan's update is next, then the team thread and Lore Knights. I just have one *nnnngh* shift to grind through before a weekend off and I will put in some solid hours on the game. I have so much to catch up on all I can do is hold up my hands and apologise. That real life thing. Stay the course please chaps, I will.

The updates in terms of how life is going and time you have are appreciated, but you know that I personally don't mind waiting. I am sure the others realise real life has to be done with first, as well. I don't think you need to apologise mate, we're grateful for all you do and thankful for such a engaging and challenging DM to game with.

Thanks

Sj

your schedule is so brutal that I'm surprised you can even post a quick note more than once a week.

Not worried about your posting rate, I know you will get to it when you can.

So, I was just reading up on the thread for everyone else, and the side discussion about Lionheart not being able to avoid things as easily as he used to. I'm not sure there's a way around that within the exsisting house rules. He was using OV (thats your passive dodge power) 13. That puts it in the same column as 15, our houserule maximum. To make him really that much more agile then everybody else you might need to let Lionheart have 16 for his OV only. That way he would REALLY be better at avoiding things. This does make me a little sad as I've always thought Stormbreaker would be the teams big agility character, but theres lots of history with Lionheart having that role so I'll just adjust my focus a little

Edit: as another thought, you could add something to let him give up his next dice action to opt for a dodge. That would add his Acrobatics to his OV. You can always do that if you haven't acted yet in a turn, but if you have then your stuck. If he had a bonus of some kind (say on danger sense) that let him trade his dice action in the next turn for a dodge action? It would stay inside the 15 AP limit while still letting him be extra hard to hit.

Flight could be used for his OV but you can perform no dice action if you do that and it's still limited to 15 APs.

Maybe getting a force field with the following advantage and disad?
This Power may be purchased with a special -2 Factor Cost
Limitation: Field Protects Power User Only.
This Power may be purchased with a special Bonus: Can
Attack Through Field. This Bonus allows Physical Attacks with
exterior targets to be made by Characters within the Field. This
Bonus doubles the Base Cost of the Power (to 60) and adds +I
to the Factor Cost.
Troia of the New Titans had this Power.

Maybe with another disad of Only in Use when moving at Speed.

Or Skin Armor, in use only when moving at Speed.

Or Partial Dispersal, in use only when moving at Speed.

I toyed with the idea of a certain amount of Dispersal - same as Frostbite, in that he can become partially solid (requiring a trickshot to hit) and it acts in the same way Flash used to (still does?) avoid blows sometimes - by vibrating through solid objects.

Or just have exactly the same effect and call it something appropriate - 'Darned Hard to hit: 5APs' or some such

Just an update on schedule. Despite my employers continued attempts to kill me, I have another 11hr shift to grind through tomorrow (just got in from todays) and wed/thurs off plus reasonable (well, 10hr+ but no stupid starts in the morning) shifts for the rest of the week.

Also a heads up -

FROM 1st JUNE I WILL BE AWAY FROM KEYBOARD TILL WEDNESDAY 5th!

I'm away in the Isle Of Man watching the bike racing (and having a go round the island myself hopefully, always assuming you can get round on a motorbike as opposed to needing a boat like last years monsoon proved)

I should be getting a post up tonight Paul, sorry for the delay in that.

Also, for the rest of you.. the bomborgs seem to move in formation, Frostbite and Sentinel both have ranged attacks up around 15 APs, something to think of would be to do some focused fire (a team attack) on the middle bomborg and let him blow his companions up. When Lionheart wakes up he could try a run by attack using his superspeed. Run in, hit the same one as hard as he can and then keep running past, using his speed to simply out distance the radius of the explosion. For the more strength types such as Yeoman and Haunt, take a page out of the Hulks playbook and throw stuff, there's lots of trees.

And be thankful that Stormbreaker isn't there. He'd just go brawl with them up close even if they blow up. He heals while they (probably) dont.

dunecat wrote:I should be getting a post up tonight Paul, sorry for the delay in that.

Also, for the rest of you.. the bomborgs seem to move in formation, Frostbite and Sentinel both have ranged attacks up around 15 APs, something to think of would be to do some focused fire (a team attack) on the middle bomborg and let him blow his companions up. When Lionheart wakes up he could try a run by attack using his superspeed. Run in, hit the same one as hard as he can and then keep running past, using his speed to simply out distance the radius of the explosion. For the more strength types such as Yeoman and Haunt, take a page out of the Hulks playbook and throw stuff, there's lots of trees.

And be thankful that Stormbreaker isn't there. He'd just go brawl with them up close even if they blow up. He heals while they (probably) dont.

Help these are some great suggestions, not sure why I didn't think of this myself, I guess its just the competing priorities, within the story line. But also not knowing of options like Run by attack? I've tended to assume that you run and attack. Not you run, attack and keep on running as an option, until you mentioned it. This is why having Lionheart be better at dodging would help. Previously we could relying on his 'borrowing' future actions as a reaction to attacks. While it prevented him from doing stuff, it also tied up enemies actions, as they tried and often failed to connect with him.

So out of interest, the other thing you mentioned was team attack? Can we specify that despite being on different initiatives we attack together or co-ordinate our attacks? Again didn't know about that.

When it comes to the rules, I really struggle to read them. I am a get in and learn as you go sort of player so whilst I knew our previous system backwards, this new one keeps me from trying things as I don't know what there is to try. And seeing how in the OOC discussion leads into quiet forensic discussion about the rules minutiae I find myself once again very lost. So any pointers from an experienced player would be very welcome.

Sj

Ryan's quite right about the attack from distance. These things are booby trapped (as you now know), the ultimate in 'shock troops' in that they can hit you from range, have a measure of strength to hit you up close and deliver a nasty surprise when they go down - thus destroying any evidence of their existence and maybe wiping out an enemy or two. Hitting one or two in the middle of the group would attack those in the surrounding pack, and if they split up to avoid this you guys have shown you can take them one on one without much bother.

The team attack tactic is good but only when several/many are ganging up on a single foe. That said, as the above suggestion went, taking out one or two in the middle of the oncoming pack may cause explosions that will disable the others (and trigger their bombs) or at least weaken them to make them easier to pick off. The tricky part would be assigning the target - all the Zomborgs look the same, and it'd be a case of "take the one in the middle, to the left of that one that's to my right!" "Wait, so your left or my left, and do you mean that one that looks like the other one next to it?" and so on

I'll cook up a map if the fight continues. At least then you guys can play 'battleships' and state attacking L7 or G4 or whatever

Some handy combat things to know about. The game refers to these as Maneuvers I believe.

Team Attack:
Two or more people attack the same target(s). You get a bonus to hit and damage based on the number of people attacking. People with a higher initiative have to wait for team members with a lower initiative to do this.

Multi Attack:
Attacking multiple targets. You take a penalty based on the number of targets you attack, also if you use a hand to hand attack you need to have enough speed to travel between all of them (this is sort of the basis I use to justify an attack in the middle of a move).

Critical Strike (or blow or something like that..):
Taking a penalty to accuracy to get a larger penalty to power. -2CS to hit and +3 to damage. Theres a more powerful version of this that is -4 to hit and +6 to damage as well.

Flailing Attack
Taking a penalty to power to get a bonus to accuracy, kind of the inversion of the previous option. I dont think theres a more 'powerful' version of this one.

Initiative Maneuvers:
Whoever takes first place in initiative can choose one or none of these options.

Pressing the Attack:
You, and all your targets take a -1 CS penalty to OV (thats the dodging value). This lets you hit more easily, but you get hit more easily as well.

Laying Back:
You, and all your targets take a -1 CS penalty to AV (Thats the hitting value). This makes you hard to hit, but your focus is mostly on defending so you aren't as accurate either. (This could be a good way for Lionheart to be better at dodging, He'll typically take the first action after all)

Some things to keep in mind is that all the bad guys have the ability to use these maneuvers as well. Haunt got beat down to 1 Body by a team attack. Also, most of these can combine freely with each other so long as you're not using opposing types like flailing attack and critical strike.

All Bonuses and Penalties are represented in Column Shifts (CS). I went over these a while ago, but in short all the stats are grouped like this
1-2
3-4
5-6
7-8
9-10
11-12
13-15*
16-18

Each of those is on CS group. Since each AP is double the previous AP, one CS is at least a x4 or a /4 difference, and they add up fast. Our current actual AP ceiling is at 15.

Bringing this all together in an example, lets say in the future Silver Sentinel, Stormbreaker, Frostbite and Lionheart are confronting a group of 6 Zomborgs and all of them win on initiative. The entier group could Press the Attack, conduct a Team Attack along with a Multi Attack. I believe 6 targets is a -3 to AV/EV (hit and damage) and that 4 people in a Team attack is +2 AV/EV, combined with a Press the Attack Initative action the group would take no penalty to AV (to hit) and a -1 CS to EV (power/damage). Given the apparent power level the Zomborgs have, they would probably all go down in one turn, as even a single one of them going down would blow up and possibly take out the rest, and so on..

In a less complicated example, Lionheart could, on his own simply use the 'Laying back' Initiative maneuver to up his OV (dodging). If he has his points laid out to even just 13 APs of speed that would put him up in the 16-18 grouping, making him VERY hard to hit.

dunecat wrote:Some handy combat things to know about. The game refers to these as Maneuvers I believe.

Dunecat thanks for this, I think this is worth putting somewhere and laminating ;-). In any case I will copy it into an ongoing document until I get more familiar with the game.

Thanks pal

Sj

It was no trouble. I want to actually get to play with you guys too. If you all get blown up by exploding zombie robots then I wont get to!

Also, I just thought of something to mention. Ranged powers such as Frostbites Cold Blast, the energy blast on Silver Sentinels gauntlets, Lionhearts telepathy and Stormbreakers Lightening power all have a range equal to the APs of the power. Stormbreakers 12 AP lightening power can reach 4 miles and Frostbites Cold Blast can reach 32 miles! Thats actually farther then the human eye can see in any kind of detail.. If I'm not mistaken that might even be able to knock satellites out of orbit from the ground.. Extreme range is a distinctly viable option for many members of our roster.

dunecat wrote:It was no trouble. I want to actually get to play with you guys too. If you all get blown up by exploding zombie robots then I wont get to!

Wow that is far, I've really not got my head around the rules or powers. Its unfortunate that the names they chose to pick can sometimes make it quiet difficult to obscure to know what a power is. I was looking over Lionhearts powers and noticed how granular the power selection is. Instead of enhanced senses, you've got different kinds of hearing, different levels of sight and different wave lengths. Under the old system not only were the names better (intangibility makes more sense than dispersal for instance) but they were broader. Admittedly they were broadly rubbish unless you were playing street level - in which case it works brilliantly. But otherwise it didn't scale well. Which is where the whole distance thing comes in. Being told something is 12 AP's distance again is quiet abstract compared to being told its a 30' cone, or 100' radius. Anyway this is just part of the adjustment process, I learn more on the go, rather than sitting down to read a set of rules, hence the reason I've been a bit slower on the uptake. So thanks again for your pointers.

Sj

Been busy behind the scenes (plus day off and kids off school = well, you know by now what it equals )but here is lionheart mk 2:



It's in technicolour 'fuzz o vision' because the list of powers is so extensive and had to shrink to fit on one page.

Notes:

Originally Lionheart was what I term a generic or 'Class 3' super, that is higher than street level, lower than 'big hitter'. Think of Spiderman, Luke Cage, certain members of the Teen Titans, Aquaman, certain other justice leaguers etc. That is how I see the Vanguard right now. However, during his adventures Lionheart underwent certain changes (partly because in the previous game he would soon be completely overshadowed by the other characters). He became what I'd call 'Class 4' - think certain X Men, Thing, Iron Man, Martian Manhunter, She Hulk and so on. That made him the most powerful super in the 1940s era of the game. He underwent further evolution when his consciousness merged with his arch enemies, and that changed him into his ultimate evolution of class 5 - think Superman, Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Thor, Gladiator, Sentry and so on. Even then his power was like an ants compared to the rest of the team. He'd gone from being the most powerful superhuman in the world to the 6th (we've lost some members of the team over the years).

When writing him up for DC Heroes I faced a dilemma. I wanted the character to participate in team adventures as well as his customary lone adventures (he always had a side thing going on with his arch enemy Saladin who was every bit as powerful as he was) so I made him with a few points more (1500) instead of 1250 that Frostbite, Silver Sentinel and Haunt got. It's testament to Ryan that he could knock out a character in Stormbreaker who is every bit as powerful and more besides with less points (1000) and Dee did the same, probably a lot more so, with Kyoko.

So, Lionheart gets taken down in a couple of hits. Well first of all he hardly ever had gotten hit in physical combat. Sure he'd been battered before, but mostly through other stuff. His thing was dodging blows and making like the Flash (who'd be Class 5, along with Green Lantern and a few others). The power reserve thing seemed to be an ideal fit for the character but it meant his core concept - of being super agile and fast, hard to hit and a hell of a fighter - would not be active all the time, and even then, he wasn't much better than the others. So I re-thought it. Instead of a reserve of points to allocate the dice will decide, and knowing Dave's luck with dice he'll fine that powers conk out every now and again - a roll of 5 or less on Adrenaline surge means that the numbers you see above are the ones he has to use that round, making Lionheart the weakest character in the team. Of course, a roll of 6 or more on the dice means that he'll become the most powerful character, and not by just a few points. It would be enough to put him in a whole new category (or two) above the other characters, which kind of restores the status quo. Rather than simply spend 2500 points which the character easily merited, I went with 1500 and gave weaknesses and a whole bunch of linked stuff, and used more Blood of Heroes rules, of which I'd used few or none in the first write up.

This incarnation 'breaks' the 15 point barrier in more ways than one and restores the status of 'heavy hitter' to Lionheart. I've tried to avoid making him a 'one man team' so whilst he is extremely powerful the others all have something to offer. Sentinel can (with a good or great roll) make a suit that Iron Man could only dream of - serious, a really great roll (or lots of hero points) would make a suit that could break the 15 point barrier easily. Stormbreaker is ultra fast and has that weapon of his. With hero points he can give anyone a run for their money. Haunt is the jack of all trades - he mopped the floor with the team with a single application of his aura of fear, and that's just one arrow in his quiver - there are plenty more options for him to call on. Frostbite maybe needs a boost in terms of powers and abilities, but his Ice Production could be used in pretty inventive ways (ice shields, an instant base made out of ice etc) and he could be the support character/leader the team needs, plus when dispersed he's hard to pin down. Lionheart represents 'Superman lite' of the team if you will. There in the forefront, but still needing to switch his power (Adrenaline boost to boost an ability or power) every round, so he's not all powerful in every area all the time like Superman would be.

We'll see how it goes - there may be tweaks needed and even another re-write, like this one has been (it's taken a while, I must admit. the character sheet I had to type by hand so my one finger stabbing took more time).

I intend to revise Silver Sentinel, Frostbite and Haunt if required, and invite recommendations from the players. Stormbreaker has been tweaked near continuously, and as I mentioned before, I have no problems with that, up to the end of issue 2 so long as there are no radical changes that 'break' what's gone before.

I've left Red Dragon separate - posting rate/real life demands might mean the character shares the same continuity but doesn't interact with the team so much. If things change we'll renew it.

New players will start on 750 points from now and play characters who have just gotten their powers. Don't consider them short changed - it's possible to turn out a character with 450 points who can easily exceed the 15 point ceiling for the Vanguard team (excluding Lionheart).

Right, best try to get some more posting done before I hit the sack.

Thanks again for all this Paul and the retionale behind it all, it continues to make a lot of sense. Just one small request, could you PM this as a PDF, I am going to annotate the powers to add little descriptions so that when I'm looking at my character sheet (much like D&D 4e) all I need to know about a power will be present. That way I can try and make better tactical decisions based on what is there without spending ages looking through the powers in the book.

thanks

Sj

Will do, and I will also add the link attribute (though they should be sorta obvious - you have 5 will so all the linked powers have 5 APs) to each, so you know what you will increase by pushing Dex, Int, Will, Str or Superspeed. Superspeed allows a number of different options, but the most potent is to substitute for Dex in this case.

If it's alright, I think I'll take a look at working a sheet for lionheart. I'll try and keep inside the 15 app cap with the exception of his OV.

dunecat wrote:If it's alright, I think I'll take a look at working a sheet for lionheart. I'll try and keep inside the 15 app cap with the exception of his OV.

If you want Dunecat, I'm not a power gamer and am not principally worried about how powerful Lionheart is, but how true he is along the trajectory from which he has already come. What was apparent is that some powers in his previous incarnation were easier to reproduce in the DC/BOTH rules, than others, hence trying to make them feel right, not just get as much power as possible. Its that feel that I want more than anything without having to break the bank or be a rules lawyer to get it. However by all means try your hand, I know you know the rules probably better than any of us ;-)

Sj

I only every try and 'break the rules' for the sake of flavor. I also don't like how absurdly high adrenalin surge can pump things.. It gets a little over the top. So I made this up using Pauls last version as a basis and going back to a Power Reserve based character.

Dex 8 (70) Str^ 7 (48) Body 9 (72)
Int 8 (70) Will 5 (24) Mind 9 (72)
Inf 8 (70) Aura 5 (24) Spirit 9 (72)

(522)

Sensing Powers:

8 Analytical Smell 10/4 (50)

8 Directional Hearing 5/3 (35)

7 Super Hearing 5/1 (13)

8 Telescopic Vision 5/1 (15)

8 Danger Sense 25/3 (55)

(168)


Mental Powers:

4 Mental Blast^ 15/3 (24)

4 Mind Blast^ 20/3 (29)

7 Mind Field 20/6 (52)
- Self only -2

4 Mind Probe^ 20/3 (29)

7 Telekinesis^ 15/6 (63)

8 Telepathy 20/4 (60)

4 Postcognition^ 15/2 (21)

(278)

Physical Powers:

7 Regeneration 25/8 (89)

9 Superspeed^ 25/8 (121)

6 Sealed Systems 5/5 (35)

6 Force Field 30/6 (84)
- Attack through +1FC x2BC, Self Only -2

(329)

8 Power Reserve 150/10 (225)
-No power may be raised above 15 APs -2, No combination of powers/attributes effected by this power may result in AV,EV or RV exceeding 15 APs -1, Fatiguing -2, Connected to Str, Mental Blast, Mind Blast, Mind Probe, Telekinesis, Postcognition, Superspeed +25 BC

Skills

8 Accrobatics 15/7 (95)
- Reflexive Dodge +1*

8 Thief 10/9 (100)

8 Detective 10/8 (90)

8 Medicine 5/7 (75)

8 Martial Artist 25/7 (95)

8 Vehicles 5/5 (55)


^ Powers marked with this may receive points from Power Reserve

*Reflexive dodge allows for a partial dodge maneuver to be performed if the character has already performed an action for the round. They gain half the normal advantage for a dodge with Acrobatics (1/2 acrobatics added to OV) and give up their next dice action. Additionally it takes two auto actions to move in the round where a dice action is lost to this maneuver.


There's a few things in this to note.
- I cut out Flight after reading the Telekinesis rules, they let you fly at its APs - your weight (wich will be 2). With your full 8 APs of Power Reserve in Telekinesis you can fly along at 13 Aps speed, or Mach 16.
- Mind Blast is and attack vs mental stats, Mental Blast is an attack using mental energy vs physical stats. These are Lionhearts 'energy blast' powers. Neither can get up to the same level as your Str right now, I've gotten the feeling that Lionheart was generally better in hand to hand combat.
- Strength can go up to 15 APs, but thats all the power reserve you have. You do however have 8 Dex and/or 8 Martial Arts, either can be used to hit and will do just fine with something like the Zomborgs.
Superspeed could go over 15 APs, but theres a limitation on Power Reseve to prevent that, this is to let you have some points after to use on Strength or something else.
- Your Forcefield can only protect you, but you can attack out through it.
- None of your sensing powers have the ability to get anything from Power Reserve.. for the most part they mostly just get improved range, and 8 APs is 1/4 of a mile.
-Power Reserve has been capped at nothing getting over 15 APs, and no combination of powers that it effects can produce AV,EV or RV over 15 APs. You CAN however get over 15 APs of OV, which is your dodging ability.
-There is a maneuver called dodge, you can add your acrobatics to your OV if you do this. If you have Initiative you can always alter your action in response to others (at least, that's always been my understanding). Lionheart will almost always have Initiative so you can always fall back on a dodge. You can also use the Initiative maneuver I pointed out earlier to get more OV(dodging).

This is SLIGHTLY over the point budget, this can be fixed by cutting some subskills, or lowering some of them. Also, having 8 martial arts and 8 dex, along with as much Str as you have is kind of pointless. Either toss Martial Arts, raise it, or lower Dex. One frees up extra points, and one makes having Martial Arts useful. Also, I suggest taking some of the subskills out of it. You dont need it for EV(damage) or RV(resisting damage).

Finally, I got as many points as I did by multiplying the drawbacks by 3.333. That's the number you have to multiply 450 (the base character creation number) to get to Lionhearts 1500 points. Which is what the book calls for.

If there's any questions let me know!

The main problem with Lionheart is that he was always a more powerful character than the others, and squeezing him into 1500 points doesn't really represent how much more powerful he was than the others. For the most part, he never interacted with the Vanguard team until the rest of the team gained super SUPER powers (think smacking Thanos and Darkseid down, and going toe to toe with Galactus) and mostly solo'd.

I guess what I'm saying is that he's more a 2500 point character,but I'm squeezing him into 1500. The rest of the team have the 15AP limit (and I will look at the other writeups and post on here so you can have a go at them Ryan) and Lionheart is more powerful than that - Thor, Silver Surfer, Superman-ish and so on. He'll mostly solo and interact with the team every couple of adventures.

At some point I'll invite everyone to take on an extra character, and power levels will be increased, but that will be for solo games. I need a break in my schedule which will come around September (!) when my youngest son (FINALLY!) starts nursery (Kindergarten)

So yeah, don't feel overshadowed by Lionheart - he's meant to be that powerful, and he was brought down to the others level by the 15 AP limit. Dave will run Frostbite for the team (Vanguard) game and to be honest I think his writeup is the weak link at the moment which I will address. Point is not to 'min/max' but get the team sort of equal, and Lionheart (and probably one or two others eventually) aren't meant to be regulars in the team game.