Chat about the game...

Page 3 of 26 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 14 ... 26  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Sun Apr 07 2013, 05:32

I see what you are saying, and I understood what you meant about the social interaction, but simply disagree with the conclusion thast it is fair or balanced to do so, esecially as you have not given any mental or mystical stats to the weapon at all. But we have talked that to death already.

However, if I might make a suggestion, why do you not simply add a bonus that it does not require an occultism roll to improve abilities and it is instead handled through some other means? That would likely not be too exensive an addition if it is allowed by the Admin, although it could be very expensive if it also does away with the requirement for time to be spent.

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Mon Apr 08 2013, 19:34

I'll consider it, I'd have to work out some other means. That's probably the best course of action. I might just up the cost of the 'Sentient Artifact' Advantage to 150 from 100 to reflect that, maybe 200 if i can fish up a couple more points. On that note, I did work up a more simplified version of the character yesterday. It did bring up an interesting question though.. What do you do when you have APs of Body from a temporary source like Power Reserve, take damage, and then the temporary APs are removed?

For instance, while Alex benefits simply from having Stormbreaker on his person, right now his Body goes up to 11 with the sword. If he had taken 9 RAPs damage in combat, then half an hour later had to rush to something as a civilian.. Would he then keep all 9 RAPs when he left the sword for a while, putting him at -3 Body (He normally has 6)?

It wouldn't cause to much of a problem as he'd then be able to make an invulnerability check at 9/9 vs 3/3 and would probably come back up to mostly full Body. It's just a good idea to get a handle on that ahead of time..

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Mon Apr 08 2013, 23:11

That is a good question, and I believe that is exactly what would happen, they would retain the full damage, unless there is a Bonus that allows it to dissipate with the loss of body, or a healing power that is contingent or otherwise attached to the ability.

However, if it is bashing damage, then it would never go below 0, so in that case, he would be unconscious rather than dying, and a quick deseration recovery check would get him back on his feet quickly.

Still, this is another decision that the Admin will have to make a final call on, as it could apply to several people.

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Mon Apr 08 2013, 23:39

One word, Invulnerability. Very Happy

Roll invulnerability as AV/EV vs absoloute damage taken, (-3 Body would be 3/3 as the OV/RV) RAPs equal Body points restored. Invulnerability checks are made at 0 or lower body. Makes for a VERY hard character to kill. Cool

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Admin on Tue Apr 09 2013, 00:12

Invulnerability is easy to rule on Smile It only has an effect if you are reduced to -1 or lower body, and has no effect on bashing damage (as happened to Stormbreaker). It's only function is to keep the character alive rather than protect against damage or being knocked out.

A Character with this Power is very difficult to kill
although it does not make him any harder to injure or knock
unconscious (for this effect, use the Skin Armor Power).
Whenever such a Character's Current Body Condition is
lowered to any negative value
(meaning any value below 0, even
beyond negative maximum Body), he makes an Action Check
using the APs of Invulnerability as his AV/EV and the absolute
value of his Current Body APs as OV/RV.
RAPs from this roll equal the number of Body points the
Character regains. If Current Body is at a negative value below
his maximum Body and the Action Check fails, the Character dies
as he would normally. In this way, Invulnerability simulates the
Character's ability to "shake off" the damage.

I was puzzled by the comment about the damage Stormbreaker took but pushed for time as I am this week (sorry everyone - blame the kids being off school! Went out today and I could've left them in the theme park and driven home on my own! Grrrr....) never got time to comment. *should* be up to speed by end of week as my work shifts from today (Tuesday) mean interaction with the kids will be limited (in other words the time I would normally post, my oldest son is on my laptop and the youngest is using me as a climbing frame. It's enough to make you want to rip your hair out...) Thanks for your patience Smile
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4668
Join date : 2010-04-27
Age : 46
Location : Leeds, England

View user profile http://darkeningshadows.darkbb.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Tue Apr 09 2013, 00:49

Whoops.. I totally misread how that works then.. What kind of a bonus would it take to have it work at 0 rather then negative values?

Alternatively, I need to get regeneration..

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Tue Apr 09 2013, 01:40

As invulnerability is designed to keep alive, rather than conscious, I would think a bonus such as that might go against the spirit of the power, and this be disallowed. And it might even not be useful to take, since you are more likely to go to 0 from bashing as opposed to killing damage. To recover from unconsciousness, you really would need regeneration. But that said, desperation recovery is always available, and given its use, an inexpensive way to essentially recover from harm and unconsciousness quickly. So you do not technically even really need regeneration either. Regeneration actually just reduced the time between normal healing checks.

Another power you might look at is mind over matter to stay conscious longer.

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Wed Apr 10 2013, 19:50

I like the suggestion of Mind Over Matter.. Very applicable Very Happy I'm just wondering how it would interact with Invulnerability? With Mind Over Matter you make a check vs OV/RV of the total damage you've taken.. if you go down to negative body/mind/spirit and get new points back from Invulnerability, would that reset your damage total for Mind Over Matter, or subtract from the damage total.. or would it not have any effect?

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Wed Apr 10 2013, 23:09

I do not thionk it matters if you have both. MoM checks are based on your total damage and are made when you take damage, not when you heal. Note though that since MoM is your dice action, so you would not have an Inv check that round.

So, if you had a 10 body and took 14 damage, you would be at -4. You would make a MoM check (against an 14/14) to stay conscious, but would not get the Inv check.
If failed, you would be unconscious at -4 and next round would make an inv check. If you got 3 points back you would not have another MoM check and would still be unconscious, since it states you only get them when you next take damage, not heal.
If the MoM check succeeded, you would be conscious at -4 and next round you could either make an Inv check or some other action check- fighting, or whatever you would like. If you made an Inv check, and went to -1, you would still be conscious and could continue the Inv or other dice actions. If damaged agaiin for 1 point to -2, then you would need to make another MoM check at 12/12, since that is your total damage now.

At least, that is my understanding of the aplication. Smile

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Thu Apr 11 2013, 00:15

If at a negitive position, I would opt for an Inv check rather then a MoM check.. if I was at -4 Body a check at 14/9 (No AV is a really fun limitation Very Happy) vs 4/4 would be much easier then a check at 13/13 vs 10/10. I would also be getting body back rather than simply staying concious. I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be hard to get the 5 RAPs needed to keep operating after all.

Currently Alex is packing

Invulnerability 9 (No AV, Non Variable, Burnout (-3), applies to all damage)
Mind Over Matter 13 (No AV, Non Variable, Cannot Enhance, Mystic Linked)
Regeneration 4

I might want to Mystic link Invulnerability.. having Dex apply as a AV for a check like Invulnerability seems a little odd to me. However, this essentially makes Alex immortal in respects to natural causes, he won't age, heals very fast and can stay on his feet a long time after a normal person would go under. Admittedly, it's not prefect as his invulnerability can burn out on a roll of 5 or lower by my understanding..

I'd love some kind of bonus to apply to Invulnerability and Mind Over Matter so they could happen simultaniously, much the way that you can make multiple Invulnerability checks if you take that one bonus to it, how how a regeneration over 10 allows for multiple healing checks as a single dice action.. Thoughts on that Paul?

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Thu Apr 11 2013, 17:34

If you are close to 0, then yes, Invulnerability is better. If you are not, then MoM is better. MoM is also a cheaper factor cost making it easier to raise, and also gives you the guarantee of being able to act if you succeed on the roll, while Invulnerability might not, if you still are at 0 or less Body. So, there are reasons to take MoM, but I do see your point and agree with you.

You really should not receive any point break for taking Invulnerability and Mind over Matter as Non-Variable, as it is not a limitation in any way for those powers. Saying you would use all of your allowed points to stay alive or conscious does not hinder or limit you, and nobody would use less than the maximum APs. Non-Variable is designed for powers where having to use it at the maximum level is actually a limitation. Growth would be one, since there are places it would make it impossible to use. Sorcery is another, since you could not split the power up into numerous spells. Some of the movement powers, if environmental damage from breaking the sound barrier is used, would be another case. But most of the detection powers, most of the defense and healing ones, and the like, this does not limit them.

Is there a reason MoM is mystic linked but the others are not? I am just curious about that. While for flavor, mystic linking them all makes sense, but in game terms, doing so likely does not. Since you have not linked the power, that the link attribute is aura makes little difference, and since those are recovery powers, tjhat they are magic does not particularly do much to magic susceptible creatures since the ower is not used against them like a mystic linked flame blast would. So, while I would mystic link them all since it fits the character concept as I understand it better, if you are struggling for points, that might be a way to save some.

You are correct on the Power burnout. If you roll a 5 or less, you lose the power and it must be recovered. That takes 24 hours, but you could likely try for desperation recovery.

Technically though you are not truly immortal and ageless. Invulnerability can be used against age checks, but they might not succeed (eventually, the odds say a roll will be failed). In addition, the power description points out that the power might not affect your lifespan at all. So, once you reach the end of that lifespan, you might have to make checks over and over just to stay alive. So, it is still useful for the resistance to aging powers, such as the ones mentioned, but does not necessarily mean you are immortal/ageless, just that you are very good at resisting death.
However, there are some optional anti-aging advantages that do increase lifespan suggested by the new owners of the game.

5 pts: Slowed Aging: This advantage increases the life-span of a character by a factor of x4 to x10 (as determined by the Player and the GM at the Character Creation stage). Such characters normally age at this reduced rate throughout their lives. Aging attacks directed against the character, such as Spirit Drain with the Aging Bonus, will have their RV increased by 5 APs. Examples: Nick Fury has this Advantage.

15 pts: Near Immortal: This advantage increases the life-span of a character by a factor of x20 to x 100, making his total lifespan span over millennia. Such characters usually age by this retarded rate throughout their lives, or they age normally to adulthood after which aging is retarded. Aging attacks directed against the character, such as Spirit Drain with the Aging Bonus, will have their RV increased by 15 APs. Examples: Asgardians, such as Thor have this Advantage.

25 points: Immortal: This advantage increases the life-span of a character to infinitude, making him unaging. Such characters usually age to their adult forms after which they stop aging completely. Aging attacks directed against the character, such as Spirit Drain with the Aging Bonus, will have their RV increased by 25 APs. Examples: Cosmic beings, such as the Elders of the Universe or Galactus, have this Advantage.

Kyoko has the first level (Slowed Aging), but I would like to increase that to Near Immortal when I have more points to spend. I honestly do not expect this to come up at all, and so am really only taking it because it makes sense to nme that a genie would have an extremely long lifespan. And I am also curious as to the potential character development and reactions she might have when she realizes she is aging so slowly (4-100 times more slowly), she will still be 17 and thus have the young disadvantage for years, if not centuries. Again though, I would imagine aging might not come up much in play, so you are likely fine without the advantages and just using Invulnerability.


For combining the two powers (Mind Over Matter and Invulnerability), they also came up with something for that as well. Their suggestion was this:

Combined power usage Bonus
1/ Combining an auto action and an auto action
For instance Running and Air Walking. Can usually be done without restriction or special cost.

2/ Combining an auto action and a Dice action
For instance all peoples in the Fog are affected by a Poison touch or Chemical Attack.
This is a + 1FC modifier for each Power. Standard terminology is, for our example, "Fog acts as a carrier for Poison touch (+1)" and "Poison touch can be carried by Fog (+1)". If one of the Powers can only be used with the other, this is a - 1 FC for that Power.

3/ Combining two dice actions
Those are the Claws with the Poison Touch, or the Projectile weapon which discharge Lighning on contact, or the Flash that also carries a Mental Blast, etc. Triple combos are also likely, such as the stun ammunition (aka flash-bang grenade) that combines Flash, Sensory block (audial) and Bomb. In each such array, one Power must be designed as the main, or primary, Power. The array is handled using the following rules :
- for each Power in the array, apply a +1 FC to all powers in the array. So a combo with two powers means +2 FC to all powers that can be combined, and the flash grenade above means +3 FC to all three powers that are used.
- the whole attack is resolved with one roll, which is then used as the Dice Action roll for all Powers in the array.
- only the main Power of the array can benefit from doubles. If the Dice Action and another Power in the array come up double, conserve the initial value of the roll for Powers in the array that aren't the main Power, and perform the additive reroll(s) for the main Power only.
- if Hero Points are used to defend against the attack, the HPs count against each and every power. For instance, if the target invests 5 HPs in LDD against a Projectile weapon + Lightning combo, he LDDs 5 HPs away from the damage from the Projectile weapon, and 5 HPs away from the Lightning attack - and only spend 5 HPs.

Special cases :
Restricted penetration : This -1 Limitation is applied to all Dice Action Powers in the array. None of the secondary Powers can get more RAPs than the carrier Power ; extra RAPs are simply ignored. The Factor Cost rebate becomes 0

So, since both are dice powers, you would fall under case #3. Combining those two would add +2FC to both powers, which seems reasonable.


I hasten to add though that while the Admin did utilize the anti-aging advantages, so they are likely fair game, the issue of combined powers had not come up, so he might very well handle it a different way, and he did express some leeriness towards some of what they did come up with, so he might throw the above out completely. As always, the Admin has the final say. Very Happy

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Thu Apr 11 2013, 19:09

Well, the implication with adding non variable is that Alex cannot choose to NOT use Invulnerability or Mind Over Matter. Depending on his opponent he could spend an hour being KOed, remaining concious and getting beat down again. Or if he was captured and interrogated, he'll always remain concious and alive. Additionally as time marches on he wouldn't be able to simply allow Invulnerability to fail and let him die of old age. I see these as drawbacks, especially depending on how the plot line goes. As for not mystic linking Invulnerability, I Initially didn't do it because I wasn't going to apply any drawbacks to it, and none of the powers granted from Stormbreaker are on his sheet as mystic linked. They've become inate non magical aspects of his person. Where as his magic sense and mystic freeze powers are individually learned spells, I was going to give him a couple others where mystic linking would have been nessicary, but I didn't have the points. Which is sad because I really wanted to get the alarm power. Very Happy

I like the suggestion on combining abilities like that but I'll have to wait on Paul's oppinion. I may just have to suffer with cutting a point or two out of some of my 'main' functions to get the HP needed to really make that aspect work. It's the best way I could think of to make him highly resiliant, but not highly imprevious to damage.

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Thu Apr 11 2013, 23:59

I would disagree those are really limitations. Stating that he will not be able to let himself simply die of old age in 50 or 60 years down the game timeline does really not hamper himself at all. That is more of a background and personality note, and if the game ever gets that far, then a subplot if his dealing with continued existence. Nor would it apply in normal play, since choosing to not use invulnerability means you die and the game for you ends. In addition, the power states it is your next dice action, so it is already suggested by the power it is automatically in use. It just simply is not really a limitation in play.
Likewise MoM states it is the next dice roll, which again suggests that it is something being done automatically. In essence in both cases it really is not a limitation on either power or on your character in any way significant enough to reduce the point cost, at least in my opinion. In the first it is a subplot. In the second, at best, it is a 5 point miscellaneous drawback rather than a power limitation. The situations in which it hampers or limits you are not worth -1cs to the power's factor cost.

There is another method for highly resilient but not damage impervious I can think of, but it really would require the admin to weigh in, so I should perhaps not mention it here. However one thing that can be mentioned here is a higher body score, and taking an attack vulnerability or partial attack vulnerability affecting body only. Wonder Woman has an extremely high body, but her RV to killing combat is low. So, she is not impervious at all, but her high body does allow a lot of last ditch defense, and also a lot of health before being unconscious, so that is one option.

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Fri Apr 12 2013, 20:35

Well, I could always go in for Kinetic and Energy Absorption to simulate that, or potentially even just use a second body score to serve as a 'shield' against bashing damage. So it would take bashing damage first but that killing combat would work on both scores. I saw a Wolverine sheet built that way once with 6 body for wolverine and 25 body for his skeleton..

Anyway, moving off that topic I thought I'd see how far I could wrangle the system simply as an experiment in what works in it. I want to make it clear that I'd never actually field a character like this for play..


Dex 7 (56) Str 3 (12) Body 6 (36)
Int 7 (56) Will 3 (12) Mind 3 (12)
Inf 7 (56) Aura 3 (12) Spirit 2 (6)

Init: 21


Density Increase (body) 10/5 6 (46)
- Str Bonus +3, Linked -2

Energy Blast (str) 15/3 6 (21)
- No Range -1, double, special linked-0, Lack of Control -1

Force Shield (str) 10/5 (6 (34)
- No Range -1, Double Special linked -0

Flight 10/3 14 (74)
- double linked -1

Blocking (Martial artist, blocking only, as power) 20/3 14 (116)


Turns out you can beat down Superman with 550ish HP, so long as you extrapolate some of the rules interactions. Namely, the BoH book as a second on 'special linked' abilities. Normal linked abilities are purchased at the same level as their link attribute and get a -2 factor cost break for it. You have to improve both abilities together at the same time, and any adjustments to one through in game stuff like power reserve does NOT do anything to the other. A special linked power only gets a -1 cost break, however if you have say.. special linked flight like Stormbreaker does, and you're Dex is improved then your flight is improved as well. The downside being that anything that lowers your dex would also cut into your flight power. The second point is called double linking, or linking a power at twice its link attribute, also for a -1 factor cost savings.. I extrapolated that if special linking is worth 1 less adjustment and double linking is worth one less adjustment, then applying a special double link is worth no adjustment, but is possible.

The character essentially functions like this, activate his defensive powers for 1 auto action. This applies force shield, density increase, and blocking (force shield adds to RV, as does density increase, blocking replaces OV). Because of activating Density Increase, Strength is pumped up by 6 points to 9, which in turn changes Energy Blast and Force Shield into 18s. Final physical stats come in to AV/EV of 18/18 (forceblast) and OV/RV of 14/30 (Blocking/Body6+Density Increase6+Force Shield18). He also has 14 APs of flight for movement. To my memory Supermand operates at AV/EV of 14/25 (Superspeed/strength) and OV/RV of 14/18 (superspeed/body) with a flight speed of 14 as well.

There are some kinks, a single hit from superman if he rolled well enough to actually deal damage would KO this guy, while it would take two hits from him to KO superman and supes would win initiative automatically.. and obviously anything that isn't a physical opponent would turn him into so much goo on the ground. However, the point was to work out how much the system could accomidate, this gives me a really good idea (our characters were built with 1000 to 1500 HP, this guy on 550.. yet Kyoko and Lionheart are the only ones who could outright deal with him to my knowledge) hopefully I can take that and actually make my real character do what I want him to do, inside the points we have, without being really cheesy with the rules. I seem to get better results when I simplify his sheet after all..

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Admin on Fri Apr 12 2013, 23:53

Not had chance to fully follow this discussion this week (sorry, but the bright side is that it's almost over and the eldest son will be back at school from next week after two very... very... long weeks off. Nnngh.)

Thank you all for your patience!

Dunecat/Deeyin may find this useful (or not) it's the official addendum to Blood of Heroes: Download

Some of you may have gathered that the various adventures are slowly drawing everyone together. in the next couple of weeks I hope to have everyone in the same place, but with this many players, different posting times/time zones and real life commitments etc it may slow things some. We may have to group players into smaller team threads but will see how it goes.

Anyway, more updates tomorrow. Will see what I can get done tonight and see what i can do about speeding up the responses. I'm spending up to half an hour (sometimes more!) on individual posts (what with referring to notes, rule books, interruptions and so on) so you can imagine (I hope) that sometimes there aren't enough hours left in the day to get round to updating everyone. Thanks for (hopefully) understanding anyway Smile

Cheers, Paul
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4668
Join date : 2010-04-27
Age : 46
Location : Leeds, England

View user profile http://darkeningshadows.darkbb.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Sat Apr 13 2013, 07:29

Dunecat, those are ways, but I was thinking of a seperate one. I sent a note to the Admin about it, as it might fit your concept very well (greater body caacity, but no add to RV).

As for the potential character you mention here, yes, much of that is true. And I have gone through some of that, and am using some of that wiith Kyoko. If you noticed the (ooc) in some of her posts with the Admin and myself, you can see that being discussed, and how it caused two revisions to the character so far. Razz

Yes, in every case, something that lowers your linked attribute also lowers your linked powers, whether it is normal, half, doubled, or otherwise specially linked. But without that last bonus, raising any of the abilities does not also raise the linked powers save in the case of that last bonus. That was actually a change from DC Heroes, and a reasonable enough one, since as they mention, it is a limitation.

There is a problem with the proposed design you have here.
Density Increase is linked to Will, not Body, in Blood of Heroes and DC Heroes 3rd edition. So, it would only be allowable to have 3 APs of the power if it was linked. So, let us presume you have the 6 in Will, and not Body, although other adjustments can be made for that.

Energy Blast is linked to Body, not Strength, in both games as well, so raising Str would do nothing. You could instead use Lightinng ower though, very similar and linked to str for the effect, so let us assume that as well.

I would also say that activating each power is an auto action, since they are all seperate acts, and do not have to go together. So, activating the force shield is 1, activating the density increase is a 2nd, and he has no more auto actions to use. Subbing the martial arts though, I do not think that takes a special action, as it is not an action to use OV normally. So, you have still accomlished all you had wanted to for this.

So, because of activating Density Increase which is on Will, not Body, and having switched those two scores, Strength is increased by 6 points to 9, which in turn changes Lightning and Force Shield into 18s (or nothing if it is Energy blast). Final physical stats come in to AV/EV of 18/18 (lightning). Note though that the lack of control for the power will increase Superman's OV.

Your defense though is where you have problems. You would not have an OV/RV of 14/30.
When statistics are lowered, so are the linked attributes. Density Increase lowers body by 1 for every 2 APs engaged. You engaged 6 APs, so the Dex of 7 would go to a dex of 4. Since you did not link the Martial Arts, he would still have an OV of 14, but had you done so, it would have been reduced to an 8. Still, it was not so OV of 14.
RV would be a Body of 3 plus density increase of 6 and the force shield of 18 as you stated. That would be a 27. So, 14/27.

He would have 8 APs of movement, not 14, since he double linked the Flight.


Superman has a Dex 15, Str 25, and Body of 18, heat vision of 15, and flight of 18. His superseed is lower than Dex and Str, so there is no need of it.

So, you are AV/EV of 18/18 and OV/RV of 14/27.
Superman is AV/EV of 15/25 and OV/RV of 16/18. (His OV will increase due to your lack of control limitation).

So it is rather close!
But then come the comlications you mentioned.
As noted, he will alsways win initiative. If he punches and hits, needing an 11 to do so (an average roll), then you take 6 RAPs and are unconscious automatically. You only have a body of 3, and if you had hero points, you can only Last Ditch defense (LDD) 3 points, still leaving you with 3 damage, putting you at 0. If he uses an initiative maneuver such as pressing the attack, he only needs a 9 to hit, and an 11 would give him a column shift. If you had juggled stats a bit and had the body of 6, so you had an RV of 30, then he would still hit with the pressing the attack with an 11 and would do 6 damage. You could LDD all of it, but since it did your body, you would be stunned and not get to attack at all, and it would go to the next round. Eventually you would run out of hero points.

Another complication is if he uses his heat vision, then blocking is of no use at all since this is not a hand to hand attack, and since you have a Dex of 4, you would only have an OV of 4. His 15 could easily score a devastating attack (hitting on a 9, gaining an additional column shift with an 11) and would lower your RV by 6 CS. That would do 7 RAPs damage, and agan, that is more than you could handle.

Presuming he missed, you would attack and need an 11 to hit. Doing so would give him 4 RAPs of damage (6 if he had pressed the attack, lowering his OV, so an 11 garnered you a column shift). It would not affect him measurably.

Since he has a flight of 18 and you only have a flight of 8, you cannot keep up with him if he decides to attack at a distance. And you have no distance attack, but he does, and he has telescopic vision, so could use it from quite a distance! Also, his heat vision of 15/15 only needs 2 hero points to raise to a 16/16, so very effective.

And as noted, if hero points are not factored in, Superman does not need to roll well to KO you, he just needs to roll average.
He would KO you in one round on average.
You would need to hit every round and it would take 5 rounds to do so.

Another point is that with a force shield, attacks from behind are not affected. Given he does have a superspeed of 11, dex 15, and flight 18, and always will win initiative, it is arguable he would be capable of getting behind you, or using a Trick Shot to attack around the shield.

And one other arguable point, the most major one, is whether the density increase and the force shield stack additively. One certainly does, however, adding a second could be argued that it would be added via AP math. That means the first would add the +12, but then the other would add either 1 or 0 APs, giving you a +12 or +13 to RV, not a +24.

So, overall, I agree you can easily reach Supermanesque levels with few points, but you likely would not defeat Superman.

Another example using a similar number of points would be this:


Dex 9 (84) Str 2 (6) Body 2 (6)
Int 5 (28) Will 2 (6) Mind 2 (6)
Inf 9 (84) Aura 2 (6) Spirit 2 (6)

Init: 50

Energy Blast 28 (lack of control -1CS, cannot enhance -1CS) (15/3-2FC= 15+150=165)
Enhanced Reaction 27 (18/1=18+130=148)

Total cost: 545.

She has an AV/EV of 28/28, OV/RV of 9/2.
Superman is AV/EV of 15/25 and OV/RV of 16/18 (due to her lack of control)
This person has a higher initiative than Superman, so would be more likely to win initiative. She makes devastating attacks every time with her blast and Presses the Attack.

That means she need to roll a 9 to hit. An average roll of 11 gains one column shift as well. She would do 23 RAPs of damage (more with a column shift), either stunning or KO'ing Superman. And if there are more opponents, then she will just multiattack them all at the same time. She has the AV/EV to do so easily.

Obviously, there are many problems with her that I do not think I need to get into. And because of that, I could not imagine anyone actually wanting to play such a character. But it is simply another example that yes, one can always create an extremely potent character on a very few number of points. Given we are built on 1000 points, the amount of capability is stunning when you think about it, and there is no reason one cannot build very exceptional and balanced characters.
Because of that, we have little cause to complain about what we do come up with. Any shortfalls are essentially ones we have created into the characters. And this also illustrates why a 15 AP limit might not be a poor idea! Smile


Admin, thank you for the download. I do have access to that (Kyoko has Weirdness Magnet remember? Razz ), and now I see where the part about saving some hero points for power tricks my husband mentioned he uses as a house rule came from. And certainly, do take all the time you need for yourself and your family. This game has been proceeding at a very good pace, but if it slows down some, it will still be at a better pace than most I have seen! And this is especially so if we are together. We will have each other to talk with, after all! cheers Thank you for running this!

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Mon Apr 15 2013, 21:52

I'm going to get away from all the rules stuff. In fact, I'd like to suggest that we take any further rules discussion to PMs. I'm happy to wrangle about the rules all day, however as far as I know most of the guys on here aren't into that level of rules messing around.

On a very non rules topic, I'd like to shamelessly plug our DC vs Marvel game on the MU board. It runs using DC Heroes like this game is now, but is decidedly closer to street level, with characters built on 450 hero points and limited to 50 points of drawbacks. This game was built on 1000, with no functional cap on drawbacks.

Dee and Myself are the only active players right now. We had a third person playing, and a fourth person interested, but both have gone AWOL and it's a little lonely. Sad

If anyone is interested in taking a look, we're over here: http://murpg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dch

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Admin on Tue Apr 16 2013, 16:16

Updates later today/tonight (night shifts always mess with my body clock) so it might be 10 ish GMT then 3am Shocked Sorry, just the way it is this week, but at least not stuck with the kids 24/7 Rolling Eyes
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4668
Join date : 2010-04-27
Age : 46
Location : Leeds, England

View user profile http://darkeningshadows.darkbb.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Tue Apr 16 2013, 18:26

I am putting my response here instead of in Kyoko's thread, because I would like to avoid longer posts that are not actually game posts there, and because putting it there makes it less likely others will see this discussion, and also because a response there moves the thread up to the top, meaning it will take longer for the admin to reply to it. Razz

Dunecat, thank you for your opinion on the matter. I agree withb you and that is how I saw it as well. My interpretation is that the Mystic Field Kyoko used would protect against the Neutralize if it is a supernatural effect. It had been what she was trying to create, after all, something to protect her from magic attacks. And when it did not work, her thought was that it was not a magical effect due to that, and that she would need Mind Shield since it is a Mental power. And the description of the power does leave it open to interpretation as to if it affects all attacks in general, or only affecting powers that directly do damage, so there is validity in what we thought.

However, upon consideration, I think the Admin has the right interpretation, and I was wrong in my initial assumption. A FC of 6 does not seem high enough to be intended to protect against ~all~ magic attacks or mental attacks (and that FC 6 can be lowered by -2FC if you only protect yourself, which is definitely too inexpensive for something that would protect against everything). The Mind Blank power protects against mind-reading and scanning powers, but is a FC: 4. That would mean that a mind shield is only 2 FC higher than the mind blank, so if 4 of those FC's are to resist for mind reading, then 2 FC are to resist damage, and all olther mental attacks, which does not seem right. And note that Mind Blank only protects oneself to begin with. So, a Mind Shield with the limitation that only protects the user would have the same FC, and it is unreasonable to think the one only protects against mind reading and the like and the other protects against everything mental. True, the user could not attack out of the shield, but even adding that bonus, it would only be a +35 point base cost and a +1 FC addition.

Skin armor is also another counterexample. It is FC: 5 and specifies only infuries caused by force and impact, but not things like gas or radiation. A force field that protects against all of that and more would likely have to cost more than FC6.

And then the various immunities, cold, flame, etc are all FC:4, so again, it seems that putting them all together in such a manner would have to be more than FC: 6.

So, the admin is likely correct in that it does not affect all mystic powers and effects in general as I had hoped and thought, but only against the ones intended to do damage to an individual, and the neutralize is not considered such.

So, it would seem I would need either a new power or a shield with a bonus that it would work against such an effect.

Everything else you have said, I would agree with, save for a force field affecting a Mimic attempt. I do not think a force field at all, since it does not actually do anything to the target character being mimicked. That is just the baseline of how hard it is to mimic a power- one with lots of APs are harder than ones with low APs.

Thank you again for your interpretation! Even if I have revised my view, it is good to know I was not the only one who had thought of it that way! Very Happy

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Tue Apr 16 2013, 21:20

I was going to mention that the difference in base costs needs to be considered as well, to compare any of the 'field' powers to the other defensive powers you HAVE to compare using the 'attacks inside may pass through' bonus, making them +1 FC and doubling the base cost. (up to 70 in some cases - 5 points below Force Manipulation!). In comparison to heat/cold immunity, at base cost 5 (i think) and FC 4.. just the base cost of the 'field' powers, laid out as I said, could account for about 10 APs of cold immunity. That's before even purchasing a single AP of Mental Field, 9 APs of Cold Immunity if we consider Force Field. By the time you purchase 10 APs of Force Field you could have 4 powers of a similar scope to cold immunity, all at 7 APs, or cold immunity at 16 APs.

In the case of Mind Field, I could have

Mind Shield 10/5 (no range -1) 9 (58)
Iron Will 5/3 9 (41)
Mind Blank 5/4 10 (53)

Or I could have Mind Field (40/7) at 10 APs for 152 HP. Using the three powers provides a lot of defence, and the argument can be made that Mind Shield would defend against the same mental attacks as Iron Will and Mind Blank do. That would result in nearly 20 APs of RV against almost every non damaging mental attack there is! In that case, Mental Field defending against such non damaging attacks makes perfect sense, it adds to mental RV after all.

.. Though it just struck me after all that crunching and posturing that something as simple as 'Drain Resistance' is the power you want to emulate.

Also, I just got around to looking through that extra link you posted Paul. It was really helpful, I think I found my defensive power for Stormbreaker! Damage Absorption! It needs a few tweaks, I dont see him absorbing attacks to become more powerful (Perhaps a 20 point Base Cost reduction or something like that, along with a FC adjustment of some kind?), and I'd love to apply it to mental and mystical attacks as well (+1 per damage type, like Invulnerability?)

Then again, I could take it, and Invulnerability/Regeneration and tie it in to those powers.. That would actually work really well come to think of it.. He normally recovers as a normal person would, but in a pinch he's extremely.. resistant isn't the right word, he damages normally but bounces back really quickly. I think that combination will work perfectly Very Happy

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  deeyin on Tue Apr 16 2013, 23:16

Hello Dunecat, I hink I did consider the change to base cost in what I had said, as I mentioned the increase in the example I gave (How it would be a total of 35 points more than Mind blank would cost. 20+20-5=35). But none of them will get up to 70. Force Field is a base cost of 30, and the others are base 20, so the highest base cost would be 60, which is only 10 points more than skin armor's base cost, and less than it would be to have skin armor, plus the immunities, plus the systemic antidote, etc. Likewise, the mental and mystic are 20, so they would be 40 doubled. That 40 is not much higher than the base cost of some of the powers that do not protect as much. Looking at mind blank and iron will. Their base cost is 30 less then the mind field, but they have a higher factor cost, a total of 7 as opposed to the 5 for a mind field useable on self only and able to be attacked through.

I think the numbers in the example you gave are slightly off. Force field of 10 APs with that limitation and bonus is only 4 APs lower than cold immiunity. It would be 14 APs, rather than 16. But it would not help against anything but cold. And you could not buy several powers at a similar AP level. If you look at immuniies, you could buy two. But if skin armor is one of the powers, you could not get anything else close. And because of the rapid scale up of the table, once you go past 9 APs, the increased base cost is rendered almost negligible. Base costs matter much more at AP levels of 1-9, but the factor cost becomes paramount at anything past that.

Using the mind example you gave, you did not calculate the self only limitation.
That means mind field would cost 120 points. (40+80).
Having Iron Will and Mind Blank at 10 APs would cost 122 points (5+48+5+64). That does not allow for the mind shield at all, and that alone is more expensive than the mind field. And there is no question that these two powers do not protect against damage. Go 9 APs higher to 19 APs, which is about the level of the attack Kyoko had taken, and the mind field is 340 in cost, while the other two now cost a combined 430 points, and again, that does not include mind shield at all.

So, all told, there is simply no way that mind shield can be expected to cover all that those others powers do and damage as well. It would have to be damage only, not everything within the category itself.

That all said, you are absolutely correct in what is needed! Drain Resistance is exactly it. As it was added for BoH, rather in DC, it was one of the changes and additions I was not familiar with. Thank you so much!

As for your character and his power, there might be something that fits better, but the Admin has not responded to my note to him about it yet.

deeyin
Street Level: Vigilante
Street Level: Vigilante

Posts : 75
Join date : 2013-02-21
Location : Japan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 17 2013, 03:01

Think we need a separate Rules discussion thread Shocked

Despite having to break off to do work ( Sad ) I will get everyone updated tonight/today, for sure. I'm a man on a mission!
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4668
Join date : 2010-04-27
Age : 46
Location : Leeds, England

View user profile http://darkeningshadows.darkbb.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  dunecat on Wed Apr 17 2013, 05:24

A rules discussion thread would be a great idea! Also, perhaps a thread specifically ask for rules clarifications? That way we can direct questions to you and not worry about them getting lost in the debate.

dunecat
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)
Class 2 Hero (Low level superhuman)

Posts : 282
Join date : 2013-02-26
Location : Canuckistan

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 17 2013, 05:57

Right, we have a new rules questions/discussion/clarification/suggestion thread here so direct anything to do with rules in there, and any out of character game questions (like who is this or that guy, what happened when... and so on.) I realize the game world hasn't been fully fleshed out, and some of our players (well, half) didn't play in the previous campaigns so some of the references will mean nothing. I intend to fix that with the 'what happened before' game background posts but they are a constant work in progress (I'm deep into the second one at the moment). At some point a 'who's who' will go up, and be expanded upon. I will also take suggestions on characters (good and bad), organisations, alien/other races, political situations and their effects on the game world and so on, and incorporate as many as I can to further flesh out the world!

Right, back on with the updates - still at work but there is a lull at the moment, so should get everyone updated Smile
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4668
Join date : 2010-04-27
Age : 46
Location : Leeds, England

View user profile http://darkeningshadows.darkbb.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 17 2013, 07:32

Here is the rank structure for posters at the minute...



I know it's only a bit of fun, but if you want the ranks changing to something else (maybe a character, group, or different term), extra ranks adding or new symbols (as opposed to stars) then offer up some suggestions and I'll get it changed Smile
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4668
Join date : 2010-04-27
Age : 46
Location : Leeds, England

View user profile http://darkeningshadows.darkbb.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Chat about the game...

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 26 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 14 ... 26  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum