Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  Steeple_jackuk on Sat Jan 14 2012, 13:58

For me this is the chance to make every houserule you ever thought appropriate for the game, to see scruitiny, peer improvement and hopefully implementation. Who knows, they might strike gold and I'd rather be in to try and help, then out foaming at the mouth ;-).

Sj
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  Admin on Sat Jan 14 2012, 12:08

I would've signed up to play test but haven't played face to face in 15-20 years, so it's online or nothing for me, and doubtless there'd be NDAs to sign and what not. Plus I guess I don't fill the criteria - last D&D game I played was 2e, online. I own all but the first (ridiculously priced on ebay) versions but then again maybe I am the target audience. Someone with money to spend who left D&D for other games? *shrug* I've seen they intend to have a large play test session over time to get feedback, and doubtless the various forums will be full of foaming mouth fanboys and rabid haters, I just hope that - somehow - they can find some middle ground between old farts like me (with rose tinted specs about how great the 80s were) and modern players, who don't know what BECMI stands for. We'll see Smile
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  Steeple_jackuk on Sat Jan 14 2012, 11:52

Bit late to this party, only just noticed the thread. I've been dming 4e for sometime I got back into D&D through it. For me it is the easiest game to DM, at present, electronic tools make it even easier. But yeah combat has to many fiddly bits. And like Pathfinder its brilliant up to mid to high level but after that balance goes out the window.

Pathfinder looks great, but all those rules - that turns me off. Although the new boxed starter set is supposed to be a work of genius. Trouble is no one here plays Pathfinder, I consider myself fortunate to have stumbled on Ross and our mates that play our biweekly campaign.

As for 5th Ed, I really hope that they can catch lightening in a jar. By getting the brains trust of the fan base involved and 'if' they do take on the feedback and suggestions it may be possible to generate a lot of good will (like Paizo did with Pathfinder - their customer relations and way they handle the fan base is a lesson many companies should take note off) then it may be possible to get something going. I'd love to see Paizo and WOTC work together and new OGL so that others can be involved and because D&D does have such a highly recognisable IP if it does well, it means other games do well also. So I've signed up to play test and look forward to finding out what happens next.

Sj
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  Admin on Fri Jan 13 2012, 13:19

Agreed about the 'fond memories' - I have a copy of the Moldvay rules in front of me (the 1981 red book) and that's where I started. Back then, you only got to know about rpgs through adverts in comic books and magazines. Even then it was a swine to get hold of - eventually found it on a shelf in a stamp collecting place rather that a hobby store. That was when I taught myself how to play, roped in a few friends and started (and the rest is a chequered history of BECMI, AD&D, RM, and just about every single game - not kidding - between 1983 and 1989 after that). These days, looking at the red book all I can think of is how I would house rule and streamline it to speed it up even more.

I'd have ability modifiers only (not ability scores) with 0 being average.
2d10 with dice exploding instead of d20
One roll to hit/damage (as we do in this game) with no other funny shaped dice to roll
Character creation would be point buy + a random bonus number of points to assign. Spend on abilities, skills and special abilities, like extra attacks
Combat would be compare attack total vs other side, highest wins, add damage from strength and weapon, subtract from opponents health points (after armour reduced damage) with a minimum of 1 point scored for bruising.
Magic would require a roll to make sure the spell succeeded, with a high roll given an extra effect and very low or very high roll making the spell go off in a strange way (a fireball that explodes on you or a fireball that has a much larger area of effect)
Monsters stat blocks would be shrunk. It would have attack, defence, special abilities, weaknesses then some fluff about where it lives and what it eats for dinner or something.

By the time I finished it wouldn't look much like D&D at all... Smile

And finding someone to play it would be even harder. I wonder how many old school D&D fans actually play the game as written? Case of rose tinted specs maybe...

That's why I think D&D 5e has a monumental task and it may well not succeed. Their target is to unite previous players and attract new players, and in so doing, sell a mountain of books. How on earth do they do that when someone like me last played D&D at 2e and stares blankly at 4e (I have it in front of me. No idea what to make of it...). For some they are happy with Pathfinder. The production values on that are superb, and though I don't have it, I guess that's where I'd go if wanting to jump back into a fantasy game, BUT... their problem is they need to sell books. Then you get 'rules bloat' with extra rules in additional books that some had and others didn't. I remember DMing 1e AD&D at school and lugging about half a dozen meaty hardbacks, with a small space for the odd school book. Every day. Most of the time we never even referred to the rules - they were etched into my brain, but because they'd turned out unearthed arcana, fiend folio, legends and lore, monster manual 2 (the list goes on) we felt a need to get them and in so doing lost the simplicity and speed that gave us enjoyment in the first place. Rolemaster shot itself in the foot by spreading itself over dozens of books and being a mess in the first place (MERP was far better for our group, we loved it, with just a single book). Another case of the gaming company giving too many options and fracturing it's own fan base.

Like what happened with D&D over the years.

So... fingers crossed it will succeed. But it will only succeed for some - I suspect 3ed and 4ed fans - and ignored by older farts/players like me with some rosy view of a past (that isn't that great and which I would house rule to death) that no longer exists.

Interesting times ahead...
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  smaug on Fri Jan 13 2012, 08:11

I did see that they have started development on 5th E.
Im currently playing 4th E now with Dave, I feel that anyone could pick it up and play and you would know the difference between a schoolboy and a grand master which makes a difference from the good old confusing days of 3.5 but I feel some what limited with character customization in 4, no stat upgrades, only one attack (mostly) per round (with my amazing *cough* dice rolling I miss my 3.5 monk with 5 attacks).

The tactics have changed alot too, for better or worse I dont really know depends what end your on I guess. E.G. Theres a lot of controlling, being pushed 5 spaces makes you think where did that come from.

Ive sadly never played any other editions but you never forget or stop loving your first. Its like your first car, it may have been crap but you'll always have fond memories of it.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 12 2012, 12:48

400+... that is one HEFTY tome! I have to admit - I need a system that can be condensed into a few pages (at most) or it all seems like hard work. The Lore Knights game we're running at the moment is 2d10 + Ability/Power/Skill and exceed target number or opponents total. Half a line to describe it. The Fate system is with fate dice (plus and minuses on them I think?) or 1d6-1d6 to generate a number from -5 to +5, plus ability/skill/whatever, as far as I can tell. I can only assume the rest of that hefty book is classes, equipment, fluff and monsters.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  DavidMcMahon on Wed Jan 11 2012, 21:34

I hadn't heard of the 5E. While 4E was okay, it was probably the most balanced of all the editions, it was too quick and too easy and too much like a shoot 'em up video game, which is the crowd that they were trying for anyway - the WOW crowd.

I love Pathfinder and play in the Living Pathfinder campaign.

Now I'm currently reading the Dresden Files RPG and learning about the FATE system and their dice. Now some of the things you were suggesting is starting to make some sense. But I'm only on page 60. Still have 400+ pages to go, combining both books.
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Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition and Games Workshop pulling the plug/rugfrom under Squadron UK

Post  Admin on Wed Jan 11 2012, 15:54

I dare say we've all played a version of D&D at some point (I stopped at 2e, preferred BECMI the most and my eyes started to bleed at 3e's brown-ness, so I put it down to gather more dust. 4e turned me off immediately when I found out a fight took 30 mins upwards.) so the announcement of 5e D&D (called 'Dungeons and Dragons' rather 5th edition some say) might be of some interest. There seems to be some conceding that 4e was a failure (in that, for the players who liked it, it was great, but it failed to unite players of previous generations of the game, and indeed, was overtaken by Pathfinder for sales).

Anyway, the usual forums are abuzz, and dare say most of you know about it already - and if not, thought I'd announce it here. It's a big deal I suppose, because it's still the game most people associate RPGs with (ask someone in the street what Pathfinder is and they might say, 'a car?' or a film or some such. Everyone has heard of D&D, more or less). Whether it'll be successful depends on how much it appeals to players of previous versions of the game - 4e will have its own fans now as well as previous editions, so it's a tough sell to draw them all into one happy 5e loving crowd...

On another note, Simon Burley was told/asked/forced? by Games Workshop to ditch his Squadron UK game, as well as any claim to Golden Heroes, so if you haven't already bought it, it's probable it won't be (legally) available from some time around today on (I haven't checked on RPGnow/Drivethrurpg but will). Sad day, GW flexing legal muscle again, though it is their IP. Even if they do nothing with it... Crying or Very sad
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